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Tacoless
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I use chevron gas for the most part, however there are times I have to fill up with 76, Shell, Gas from Base which I have no Idea what brand it is.
I think it might be BP. When I was stationed at MacDill there was a BP truck at the Shopette. Now when I was at Robins there was an unmarked truck. It might just be a sub contractor.
 

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Waxed to Perfection
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Your way off base.. Its not the gasoline from the top tier dealers.. Its the Ethanol.. A few facts about ethanol:

Ethanol can soak up to ten times its weight in water.

Ethanol cannot be piped to a location due to its corrosiveness, it must be trucked.

According to a study by Cornell University, for every gallon of ethanol produced, 1.4 gallons of energy is consumed in the process, compared to 0.15 gallons used in the manufacture of gasoline.

It takes 1.5 gallons of ethanol (E-85) to drive as many miles as one gallon of gasoline.

Every gallon of ethanol removes 53 cents from the Federal Highway Trust Fund because of a special tax break for producers.

Ethanol increases the vapor pressure of gasoline by 1 psi. resulting in higher evaporative emissions of Volatile Organic Compounds, while tailpipe emissions of Acetaldehyde increase 150%.

Ethanol permeates the hoses and lines of automobile fuel systems resulting in a 50% increase in VOC emissions for pre 1995 cars.

Ethanol dissolves oxide scale from the walls of pipes and tanks, subjecting the systems to internal corrosion, which leads to leaks.

The no name brand gas stations do not get monitored like the top tier retailers do.. And they tend to add more ethanol than the 85% allowed due to costs. Think about the problems it causes your vehicle. The cheaper gas sells more quicky, therefore more gets delivered. It remains stirred up in the tanks not allowing the water to seperate & settle, then it gets pumped into your car. Now your vehicle runs rough because it sees the "volume" of fuel but runs lean due to the water. The ecm then tries to correct the problem by richening the mixture, killing your gas mileage. The ethanol also acts as a detergent and cuts all varnish etc off the tank walls making it a sludge stopping up fuel filters, and clogging injectors..

The following information outlines the key reasons why vehicle manufacturers do not recommend the use of any ethanol/petrol blended fuels in vehicles made. This information is also applicable to pre-1986 vehicles listed as unsuitable to use ethanol blended petrol.

Ethanol has a number of important chemical and physical properties that need to be considered in a vehicle's design.� � �

Carburettor Equipped Engines

Vehicles made before 1986 vehicles were predominantly equipped with carburettors and steel fuel tanks.

The use of ethanol blended petrol in engines impacts the air/fuel ratio because of the additional oxygen molecules within the ethanol's chemical structure.

Vehicles with carburettor fuel systems may experience hot fuel handling concerns. This is because the vapour pressure of fuel with ethanol will be greater (if the base fuel is not chemically adjusted) and probability of vapour lock or hot restartability problems will be increased.

As a solvent, ethanol attacks both the metallic and rubber based fuels lines, and other fuel system components.

Ethanol also has an affinity to water that can result in corrosion of fuel tanks and fuel lines. Rust resulting from this corrosion can ultimately block the fuel supply rendering the engine inoperable. Water in the fuel system can also result in the engine hesitating and running roughly.

Fuel Injected Engines

In addition to the issues mentioned above for carburettor equipped engines, the use of ethanol blended petrol in fuel injection systems will result in early deterioration of components such as injector seals, delivery pipes, and fuel pump and regulator.

Mechanical fuel injection systems and earlier electronic systems may not be able to fully compensate for the lean-out effect of ethanol blended petrol, resulting in hesitation or flat-spots during acceleration.

Difficulty in starting and engine hesitation after cold start can also result.

Exhaust And Evaporative Emission Levels

Lean-out resulting from the oxygenating effect of ethanol in the fuel may affect exhaust emissions.

Of more concern is that fuel containing ethanol can increase permeation emissions from fuel system components, particularly those that have aged for nearly 20 years. Therefore the increased vapour pressure of fuel with ethanol (if the base fuel is not chemically adjusted at the refining stage) will lead to increased evaporative emissions.
 

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Waxed to Perfection
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Found this also:

Monday, May 15
Cold Start and Driveability Issues -- Detergent and Ethanol Levels in Fuel
I'm going to paste in a post I made to a mini2.com forum, regarding an issue that I (and apparently many others) have been having with my MINI, involving cold starts and driveability problems, resulting from higher levels of ethanol and lower levels of detergent in gasoline. mini2 won't let me post urls, so here I can post them properly.

I've had problems with cold starts and subsequent driveability with my 2005 MCS for a couple of weeks, and my boyfriend is having the same problems with his. The car will start, but either stall or hesitate dramatically before revving up for the first couple of minutes it's running -- particularly troublesome when merging into oncoming traffic! According to Chris at MINI of Peabody (MA), this is due to changes in fuel additives (i.e., detergent) and/or amount of ethanol in fuel. Chris said it's a widespread problem that's affecting MINIs, BMWs, Land Rovers, and others. Supposedly, a software update is being developed to solve the problem -- but no one's really sure whether that's happening, or even if it is happening, whether it will work.

BMW released a service announcement that essentially suggests using only top tier fuel brands, i.e. Shell (click here for more info). MINI dealerships are now handing out this announcement.

BMW released another service announcement regarding the level of ethanol in fuel (scroll to the bottom of this page to read the full announcement).

From the service announcement:

Under certain environmental conditions, mainly lower ambient temperatures, ethanol separates from gasoline/alcohol mixture and absorbs water. The ethanol absorbed water molecules are heavier then gasoline or ethanol, they remain at the bottom of fuel tank and when introduced into combustion process they tend to form an extremely lean mixture resulting in misfire, rough idle and cold starting problems.

Chris suggested alternating between 89 and 93 octane fuel -- first, since switching back and forth will help the car's computer to adapt to different types of fuel and levels of fuel consumption, and second, since higher octane fuel tends to also have higher levels of ethanol, which is part of the problem.
 

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I dunno about the effects of mixing the techron with other gas, but like some other people have stated, I go out of my way to use Chevron. I can really tell a difference between it and other fuels, maybe, howver, that's cuz the others are casuing sludge after the techron is there, ??
 

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Well, that old wives tale of using the "busiest" gas station because they have fresher gas goes right out the window.. If the station is getting a delivery every two days or every day, then the water in the tank or from the transport truck or even the main terminal never gets a chance to settle to the bottom. And every car that fills up is getting some of that water put into their tanks.. If you are like myself I use 2 tanks a week, sometimes more.. If I am getting say 2 ounces of water mixed in every tank then it would take 64 tanks for me to get a gallon of water.. But, just for the heck of it, say I burn 1/2 an ounce of that water thru every tank. It would now take 96 tank fulls of 43 weeks of my driving to equal 1 gallon of water in my tank.. And thats not counting any condensation build up inside my tank..

And, we see that ethanol actually draws water, hey thats good right? Maybe. if water burnt.. Unfortunately it does not and that means I will use more fuel to burn the "bad/watered" down fuel in my tank.. Whats the first thing we (I) do if I think I got a bad tank of fuel? Add octane booster.. Nope, that won't work.. Higher octanes produced more power, thats true.. But they are'nt as combustible as low octane fuels because they are "heavier" and don't mix well with other chemicals.. Therefore, it would be better to use 87 or 89 octane (not a full tank full) but more like 6 gallons to a fill to mix with the higher octane and the ethanol and burn better.And for the record adding dry-gas is not going to help the problem go away.. Dry-gas is alcohol based (ethanol).. your only adding more problems to the already growing one..
 

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Ethanol drops mileage by 27%, CR claims
BMW News

September 6, 2006

Mileage plummets using E85.
“Go yellow, live green … wind up in the red?” The ethanol-gasoline mix called E85 is tough on fuel mileage and driving range, warns Consumer Reports. In a test of an E85 Chevy Tahoe, E85 meaning it can run on a mix of 85% ethanol, 15% gasoline, the magazine found mileage dropped 27% from 14mpg to 10 mpg and driving range on a tank of fuel fell from about 440 miles to 300 miles. It does, however, reduce emissions of nitrogen oxide, and acceleration improves slightly.

Ethanol is grain alcohol (rendered undrinkable; sorry) and much beloved by America’s grain-producing Midwest. Others have noted earlier than America’s existing farmland isn’t anywhere near adequate to feed the country and produce more than a small fraction of ethanol.

There’s less energy in a gallon of ethanol than in gasoline, which is why mileage is lower. (Actually, the most common mixture isn’t 85% but 90% ethanol, CR says in the October report.) With E85 at $2.91 a gallon (in August), the equivalent, mpg-adjusted cost for gasoline would be $3.99 a gallon.

Manufacturers get a fuel-economy credit for building flex-fuel vehicles even if buyers never fill up with anything but gasoline. And outside of the Midwest, it may not even be possible. To run its tests, New York-and Connecticut-based Consumer Reports had to buy four 55-gallon drums of pure Ethanol at $2.90 a gallon and pay $680 for shipping from Alabama.

No BMWs are certified for E85. Ethanol is corrosive and can ruin internal fuel line components.
 

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publication search
Volvo Penta IPS

ETHANOL-BLENDED GASOLINE AND YOUR VOLVO PENTA ENGINE

Gasoline is now being distributed in the United States containing ethanol.

Volvo Penta gasoline engines may be operated using gasoline blended with no more than 10% ethanol that meets the minimum octane specification.

Fuel containing 10% ethanol is also commonly referred to "E10."

Users of ethanol-blended fuels must take additional care in the maintenance of their fuel systems. The effects vary depending on the fuel tank material. Most boats produced the last 20 years have fuel tanks constructed of aluminum, stainless steel, or plastics. Since ethanol-blended fuels attract and hold moisture, ethanol content can contribute to causing corrosion of tank material in aluminum fuel tanks. Corrosion material can clog fuel filters and damage injectors, carburetors, and other fuel system components. Stainless steel and plastic fuel tank materials are not affected by ethanol-blended fuels. However, ethanol-blended fuel can act as a solvent, loosening and washing old deposits or contaminates into the fuel system.

Fuel system or engine damage caused by contamination from water, foreign particles, sludge, or gums entering or forming in the fuel system is not covered by the Volvo Penta Limited Warranty.

Some older boats may have fiberglass fuel tanks. Ethanol-blended fuels have been shown to act as a solvent to the surface of fiberglass fuel tanks, weakening the fuel tank walls and allowing sludge and gum to form in the engine fuel system and valve train. As a result, Volvo Penta does not recommend the use of ethanol-blended fuels in fuel tanks constructed of fiberglass.

Refer to the Fuel System Maintenance section of your Operator’s Manual for the complete fuel requirement statement from Volvo Penta.

Recommendations when using 10% ethanol-blended (E10) fuel:

* The use of a water separating fuel filter between the fuel tank and the engine is recommended. See your Volvo Penta dealer for information regarding installation of the appropriate water separating fuel filter in accordance with US Coast Guard regulations and ABYC standards.

* Water separating fuel filters should be checked frequently for water and contaminates in accordance with the filter manufacturers recommended service intervals.

* The use of a commercially available fuel stabilizer such as STA-BIL® is recommended when storing ethanol-blended fuels for more than 2 weeks.


marine engines
overview
Ethanol-Blended Gasoline and Your Volvo Penta Engine
 

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ADMlNAHATER
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Discussion Starter #49 (Edited)
My next question is:
Do gas stations have to list their Ethanol % on the pumps?
Is there a place to find out who has what percentage of Ethanol?

also where does one get a water/fuel seperator and how much maintainence is required?
 

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My next question is:
Do gas stations have to list their Ethanol % on the pumps?
Is there a place to find out who has what percentage of Ethanol?

also where does one get a water/fuel seperator and how much maintainence is required?
most say right on the pump i believe that its somewhere around 10%.


And ethanol is fine as a fuel when used in a motor designed to run it. Ethanol is 115 octane much higher than what any car needs to run at 9.5-1 compression. There have been cars that have been built that have more HP and get better mileages than a gas motor.
 

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I think you should tell your friend that his problem is not the gas he is pumping but rather his bike. Friends don't let friends ride Harleys.
 

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Ethanol has less energy in the chemical bonds because they are more stable. Typically a lower octane gasoline has more hydrocarbons and less aromatic compounds such as benzene or toluene. Aromatic compounds have double bonds and exhibit conjugation between atoms which stabilizes the molecule further and drops the possible energy from breaking the bond. Hydrocarbons on the other hand are simple molecules with only single bonds and have more energy when broke. Hence the lower flashpoint. I can see E-85 getting worse mileage. As for additives mixing and precipitating out. It's possible, I don't know what kind of chemicals are in the gasoline additives but I remember mixing two clear liquid compounds in the lab and watching solids drop out of solution.
 

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This mite sound a bit odd to some, but I've heard plenty of this and found a few people stating the same thing..

Don't run Chevron Gas or any subsidiary that uses Techron..

All gas is the same except for each vender uses their own additive..
Heres the deal..

The gas is fine, the techron is not..
If you run shell gas or anything else other than Chevron, then your fine, untill you mix in any Chevron fuel into preexcisting gasoline that has different additive than the techron additive, it causes a chemical reaction and forms sludge..

heres a situation, neighbor named Deno bought a brand new Harley motorcycle, hes been putting in Chevron Premium sence day one and he now has 1100 miles on it.. (3 months later)

Hes had to run other brands of gas, but for the most part hes ran Chevron 80% of the time..
Nothing else additive wize

Hes noticed his bike has been running a little sluggish till this morning the bike would turn over, but act like its out of gas.. half a tank easy.. fuel on..

So we load it up into my truck and take it to the Harley dealer..
guy isn't busy so we pull around back and unload it..

He goes to turn it over and asks Deno what gas hes running or if hes ran any type of race fuel or additives in it, ect..

Deno sais the majority has been nothing but Chevron because its close by..
Jed or Jeff, mechanic sais, ok, brb.. I think I know the problem..

He grabs a screw driver, pulls the carb off and does a few other things and pulls off this little bowl deal off, and its coated with sludge..

He sticks his finger strait into it and was able to suspend the cup by his finger..

Sludge..

I've heard a few tow truck drivers rattle off at the mouth about chevron, ect..
Wow..

Also my buddy Jeff's 99 Silverado just had to have the pump assy replaced as well.. hes ran chevron up near his house because its close and has used several other brands of gas which has mixed in as well..

Nasty stuff..

You can take it as urban myth all ya want, i didn't read any of this on a site, I witnessed this first hand.. For what its worth, its free..

there ya have it..

I switched from Shell to Chevron and I feel that my truck runs smoother and with more power, maybe the station your friend uses has dirty tanks...

I dunno, it really doesn't make any sense....

All gasolines come with a package of additives, it doesn't matter wich brand it is, so if anybody says that they don't use additives it's wrong, you are already using them...
 

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I switched from Shell to Chevron and I feel that my truck runs smoother and with more power, maybe the station your friend uses has dirty tanks...

I dunno, it really doesn't make any sense....

All gasolines come with a package of additives, it doesn't matter wich brand it is, so if anybody says that they don't use additives it's wrong, you are already using them...
Yes, yes and yes.:runaway:

Techron isn't the thing creating the sludge.
1. Could be the station you're pumping from.
2. Could be the Terminal the trucks are filling and delivering from. (I've seen a terminal that ran their storage tanks so low that they were pumping dirt that had settled to the bottom of the tank. And instead of switching tanks when it got to low they just left it.)
3. All gas tanks on cars, trucks, boats, bikes, whatever it may be is bound to collect dirt and sludge on the bottom sooner or later. Could be time to drop the tank and clean it.

STOP WAITING UNTIL THE EMPTY LIGHT COMES ON TO FILL IT UP. PREVENT PUMPING THE BOTTOM OF THE TANK INTO YOUR ENGINE.:doah:

Just my two cents...:waytogo:

Aloha...
 
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Unbranded gas didnt have Additive like the gas right out of the pipe line and the ma and pop stations.all the gas out of the pipe line is the same.The branded stations like a big name co.add the additive.I have used Chevron for a long time and had to problems and mixed it with every other gas.Techron and the additive at QT station is good stuff if the delivery driver puts the stuff in the tank and the right way.the stuff QT uses needs to be blended it so thick but i see them just poor it in the tank.:shrug: Arco is Sh!$.they add so much stuff to it thats not gas I dont know how anything can run on it.Thats in AZ.Dont know about any other place.Just My $.02. For what its worth.I been around the gas Transport for 20 some years.
 

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ADMlNAHATER
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Discussion Starter #58
sure he didn't let that bike sit around and gum up on the off season eh?
The bike was only 3 months old at the time I posted this..

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I run Arco ($$ permitting) and notice I dont get very good gas milage from it..

I need to shell out the extra 2 bucks and just roll with Shell for a tank or
two and clock my mpg and see how much of a difference I can pull from it..
 

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Also remember, it only takes one bad tank fillup to create problems. I've heard gas stations that blend diesel with gasoline, at a proportion so high your engine won't notice it at first but can create sludge.
However my advice is: if chevron didn't work for you for whatever the reason is change to another brand...

Good luck!
 
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