well since the beginning of my engine project I said that I want to keep the stock ECU. Now I start to think about using a megasquirt to control my ignition and fueling. I found a 1999 engine. I would like to use the stock wasted spark discharge coils.
Since the 1999 engine received the cam sensor I think I could use it and try to set-up a sequential injection. It seems to have slight benefits for low speed and idle but because it's a daily driver, I think I should go that route? Also, beeing a 4x4, it happens often that I will just put it in gear and let it go idleling over stuff in wooden trails. On the other hand, my '96 3RZ is currently batch injected from factory and it doesn't seem to hurt that much.
Unless using another type of throttle body like a GM model if it's a good idea?? I plan to use the stock throttle body and I would like to be able to use it to control idle speed and cold idle speed. I live in a place where it's +30 celcius summer and -30 winter. If you add the chill factor to that it's damn cold! It must crank and start flawlessly each morning.
With that new possibilities offered by a stand alone, I expect to use 550 cc injectors and boosting between 8-10 psi. The 550cc seems to be both available as high or low impedence. I think if I choose them low impedence it will be easier to set a nice idle but maybe 550cc is not that big to have problem for controlled low speed injection and both could do the job?
I red many threads on different forums and it seems that some are telling the only good choice is a MS3 3.57. Do you think lower or previous versions could be also a good choice? I'll probably purchase it as a DIY kit. Because of the price first as the margin is not neglectable between the models and boards but I'd also like the DIY option because it's a project on which I wan't to understand the most of it so "building" the ECU could be a nice experience.
At first I overlooked that option because I don't have the harness neither the stock ECU. I'll try to find myself an engine harness localy and it's true it could be a decent option!
I would use your 96 harness everything but the ignition should be the same. As far as standalone if you want the experience of installing one and have a tuner or are intrested in tuning the system yourself it's a great project. I have enjoyed every aspect of my build from the first piggyback to the current standalone.
I know that the stock ecu does a really good job of achieving fuel economy. They say every truck is different but I wasn't able to gain more that about a mile or 2 per gallon while on the piggyback. So I would have had to run that setup quite awhile to get it to pay for itself. I did however learn alot from my experience with the piggyback as far tuning goes. With a piggyback you always have the stock tune, idle control system, etc. to fall back on with a standalone all of that has to be written.
I would say for your goals your good with the stock ecu. On my original build I went piggyback because I was going for fuel economy with the option of the extra power while in boost. To achieve that I was able to pull some fuel out while in closed loop on the stock injectors and while in boost use the 5th injector to add fuel at the throttlebody. That project worked out really well 287rwhp. And it may have had more in it that was on a small intercooler but a stock 2rz
I'm sure you realize all you need is a set of injectors swapped vacuum source for the regulator and a fuel pump on the stock ecu.
But if you can't find a stock ecu all of that is a moot point.
I like the possibility to use an additionnal injector. I could also use 4 of them, one in each runner. I put my hand on a another motor, a complete 3RZ for 450$... I will have everything on it and more, oil pan, strainer, ECU, harness flywheel... etc.
So if I use the stock ECU (well 3RZ for a 2RZ should work) I have the possiblity to add more fuel with a 5th injectors of 4 more maybe... It's true it would be better for me as a daily driver use to know it will start every morning when I need it to go work +30 or -30 degree Celcius or when I'm back from a fishing trip 3 hours far in the wood.
About the timing... how agressive the ecu is retarding the timing when it "hears" knocking? Could it be possible to generate a signal or noise created when parameters like boost level, WOT and RPM are all meet like with a realy box to induce timing retard? Not sure I want to go there, but maybe it's doable?
I'm trying to build the engine with the best piston squish, cooler air charge possible using a watercooler and a colder 185 degree thermostat. I hope it won't detonate too much.
You shouldn't have any issues with detonation. The stock ecu rarely retarded timing at all. I actually added timing at one point to make sure I wasn't missing something before I added the extra sensor to the mapecu. At your power level an extra injector will be plenty. I experienced no wetting issues in the intake spraying before the throttle plate. And experienced no detonation with a small air to air intercooler. If you decide to go that route I know a guy that has a throttlebody and injector already made up. Lol
Do adding a hydro-meth jet at a certain RPM would be a good satefy?
I did some search and I think a split second AIC1 would be a good choice to control the additional injector. Still don't know which of their model yet.
I calculated that 600cc would be a good size to cover all my fueling need I'll even want to make with this motor. I will be running stock pistons CR so I have to limit myself somewhere.
I plan to use the LCEperformance pistons/rebuild kit. I think theses pistons are good but they are not dedicated to turbo build. Investing on Arias forged pistons would start to break the bank for the project budget.
So back to my first idea, because I won't be able to control the timing maybe I could set-up a meth injector to shoot at like 4000 or 4500 RPM+ when full boost is applied?
If you are going to get a meth kit anyways, then stick to just using the meth kit IMO and don't mess with a piggyback.
If you have access to pure methanol I was making well over 100hp over the stock injector limits on my truck and it ran better then ever. Just make sure to get a good kit with failsafe if you do this.
In short, yes, meth is a GREAT option, IMHO it is a must for any boosted build on any car. It simply works and is so cheap and easy for the results if done properly.
Now if you must do a piggyback I highly recomend going with something like the AEM FIC, it has been done before so you have some help getting it working it also has a much better software/support package then most piggybacks.
I would also run multiple extra injectors if you did that, a single extra injector is NOTORIOUSLY hard to control and tune, been there, got fed up with that. It works but is far from ideal.
Instead I would go with an equal amount of injectors to cylinders you have, that way each can fire for a single cylinder instead of 1 firing 4 times a cycle (thus 1/4 the resolution).
Honestly if you do something like the FIC, you are better off just using it to control the stock injectors and upgrading them, it takes full control over them so it works far better then options that just trick the stock ECU.
Meth was a solution to adress the stock timing to work better and safely. If I don't have to use it I won't add it. Having to keep and maintain another reservoir under the hood is not a problem but I know I will hate to do it often during winter. If I use meth, it will be hydro meth 50/50 (-45 degree windshield washer) because the plan would be to use the same reservoir and to use the empty waring light inside the truck.
AEM FIC seems to be a good product. That would finally allow me to use bigger 550cc injetors while keeping the parameters of the Toyota ECU to start, idle and basic operation. Also it seems it could adress the timing problems that may happen. I don't know how 550cc work for properly keeping idle on a 2RZ? If they are too big and it creates a crappy idle it's not a good plan for me. But I have absolutly no problem, making custom ports for 4 other injectors. I could add another row of 300cc injectors.
There is so much products out there to choose from. Pretty hard to pick what is the best suitable for each project.
You never been concerned about the lower flash point of the 100% meth? Also it's pretty usefull to be able to stop at any service station to buy a gallon of standard windshield washer and fill the empty reservoir.
It has a far higher ignition point then gas and is FAR FAR more stable then gas as well. Also evaporates very fast making spills much less of an issue and overall the same things that make it such a good race fuel also make it very safe to work with.
During a test install I actually had a leak of 100% meth directly onto my headers that would actually glow after hard pulls. Never an issue. Now don't do it and learn from my mistake and always treat the meth system as you would a fuel system, but it shows just how stable it is.
Convenience and price is the only reason to not use 100% meth. Best idea is to buy a barrel of meth if you plan to do that.
I got one washer fluid tank per tank of gas as a rule of thumb in normal driving. Although my dad would get a few tanks of gas per meth fill and when I had a heavy foot I could get 1/4 tank to a washer fluid fill.
Now I start to think about using a megasquirt to control my ignition and fueling. I found a 1999 engine. I would like to use the stock wasted spark discharge coils.
It's up to you, but they idle just fine - and have for years using non-sequential.
The real difference with sequential is that it's going to require one of the upper-end megasquirt units.
Unless using another type of throttle body like a GM model if it's a good idea?? I plan to use the stock throttle body and I would like to be able to use it to control idle speed and cold idle speed.
You can't easily use another TB. The Toyota TB has a TPS and works just fine, with the added bonus that it mounts on the stock manifold that it was designed for... :smile
If you want a different TB, you should look into a different intake. They're available, but expensive. They do make the install a little nicer, generally, I see them used when people are trying to get serious about the power.
Idle speed control - You need a megasquirt unit that can control your IAC (Idle Air Controller). It's 3-wire and again, part of that stock throttle body.
I think if I choose them low impedence it will be easier to set a nice idle but maybe 550cc is not that big to have problem for controlled low speed injection and both could do the job?
You want high impedance, simply so you don't have to deal with high-draw injectors and the extra circuits that they may require. 550cc/min is not too big for idle with the 2rz - it's been done before... Plus there are existing maps for that size injectors. OsideTiger has them for a reasonable price.
You need to decide which model you're going to use, MS1, MS2, MS3, MS3X first. Then you worry about the boards. My understanding of the latest boards is that they are easier to assemble...
Choose your fuel and ignition system - this determines which MS unit you need. It also, especially with MS1-3, will change what hardware goes on the board. MS3X is a little more flexible via software control.
I've got a website on doing what you're talking about - putting a Megasquirt Turbo 2RZ into a non-Tacoma (4runner). Lots of details: http://www.2rzturbo.net
I asked the tech at Snow Performance about running pure methanol & he said to be very careful because the flash point of pure methanol is 150F and the temperature under the hood can reach & exceed 150F & then when pure methanol burns you can't see the flames and you won't know that it is on fire. You might want to check with one of the companies that sells methanol injection systems to get the correct answer.
I asked the tech at Snow Performance about running pure methanol & he said to be very careful because the flash point of pure methanol is 150F and the temperature under the hood can reach & exceed 150F & then when pure methanol burns you can't see the flames and you won't know that it is on fire. You might want to check with one of the companies that sells methanol injection systems to get the correct answer.
"The Autoignition Temperature - or the minimum temperature required to ignite a gas or vapor in air without a spark or flame being present - are indicated for some common fuels below:"
Methanol, Methyl Alcohol - 878f
Gasoline, Petrol 475f - 536f
Research FTW.
FYI, Meth injection companies can't recommend running anything more then 50/50 as it becomes flammable over that and thus they become liable if something goes wrong. You will never hear them tell you otherwise. Got to do real research to see what really happens in the real world.
the engine will be installed on a '96 Tacoma 4x4. R150 transmission will also be installed.. but that's the second part of the built.
I really think a piggyback would be a better choice for me than a complete standalone. My performance goal and the reliability I'm looking for a daily driven vehicule push me toward that. I still have to figure the hardware and software to do it.
@ Texas_Ace
I would use 100% meth on a dedicated race car. I'm not too exited to do it on a daily driven truck. Pure meth is probably better but 50/50 ratio also have it's use... apparently on 50/50 blend the meth will evaporate during the path to the combustion chamber and decrease the charge air blend while the water that will remain unevaporated goes down into the combustion chamber where it will decrease the combustion temperature... How that is true or not, I don't know. I've never been sat on top of a piston in both occasions to really tell the difference.
@ dcg9381
the engine will be installed on a '96 Tacoma 4x4. R150 transmission will also be installed.. but that's the second part of the built.
I really think a piggyback would be a better choice for me than a complete standalone. My performance goal and the reliability I'm looking for a daily driven vehicule push me toward that. I still have to figure the hardware and software to do it.
I thought I saw that you didn't have an engine harness? Megasquirt solves *some* of that. If you're more comfortable with a stand-alone, I totally get it - you'll have better "retail" support. MS has a big learning curve. And honestly, the Tacoma ECU seems to be good for 7psi or so - that's a huge advantage for sorting the bugs out. From what I see on the dynos, you may be happy with that.
Let me know if I can help you with anything MS - It's about 10x harder if you have to be the first person to do an install. In terms of reliable, once tuned, I've never had an issue with it being reliable, but the booger is in all the work that goes in to get it there..
This is why I would like to find some charts to be able to do some calculations to start with. Trial and error is ok, but I'm a newbie at this and I like to understand what I do.
Well charts are great but frankly with meth injection of any kind it is always quite a bit of trial and error unless many have gone before you. There are just too many variables to take into account.
For example just the difference from being in Texas or Canada could make a significant difference in needed jetting.
In a nut shell though, to see what your approx final octane will be, figure out what your injectors are flowing (figure they will be pegged open as this is how Toyota generally tunes the engines under these conditions).
Then figure out the nozzle flow rate. Nozzles do not flow what they are rated for 99% of the time as they are rated @ 100psi but generally have more or less depending on size. Pump also do not output the pressure they say except with the smallest nozzle, pressure drops sharply as size goes up.
If you figure the actual flow of meth and gas you can then input the numbers into race gas calculators on the internet with methanol octane being somewhere north of 120 and get an approx value.
This is all a waste of time IMO though as knowing the octane is a useless exercise. You never know what your engine will like or need until you try it and as a rule, the more the better.
In your case it is really not that hard, will just take a good day of driving around and changing nozzles to figure it out.
Start out with a nozzle on the large side as you always want to error with too much vs too little. Then see what your AFR's are doing and watch the timing with an OBDII scanner.
Adjust the nozzle size until you maintain AFR's richer then ~12:1 at your desired boost level. Then play with the turn on points to get the best AFR's throughout the RPM band.
Meanwhile check the timing to see if there are any signs of the ECU pulling timing due to knock. When timing is maxed out it is a good sign that the ECU is happy. Mine ran more timing with boost and meth then it did NA.
After all of that you can try putting in lower octane fuel, see what the timing does. If the timing changes ot the ECU starts dumping fuel, then it is a sign that it is senseing knock. In which case either go back to the better gas or you need to add some water to the mix to raise octane more.
Not hard, just time consuming. Should still be doable in a day with a friends help though.
Hey thanks a lot for the explanation. True, it doesn't worth the calculation time with the way to tune you are saying. I understand that making a good receipe takes time but I'm ok with that.
There is a long hill on the highway at few minutes of my place. When the set-up will be quite good, I will be able to go WOT at full engine load for like 10-15 seconds. That gives plenty of time to watch the AFR readings.
At first I limited myself to the stock fueling possibilites. I think I will go for more. Probably with meth injection and possibly with a piggy back of some sort.
I'm not fixed yet about how I rebuild the block... I'm at calculating injectors options.
I was wondering what are the diffenrent limits of a 2RZ?
If I'm right:
- Fueling with stock ECU limits to 5-6-7 psi?
- Head gasket and head bolts limits to 10 psi?
What are the next steps.
How much boost you can run stock pistons?
How much boost you can run stock rods?
I would guess the rods and pistons will be fine to 18psi. Tuned of course. I don't see the benefits of meth being worth mixing and the extra effort. Are you changing turbos? I'm anxious to see how that 47 trim works out for your application.
The turbo is definatly a keeper. I drew a couple of new lines on the turbo map. It still a good choice up to 15psi and 300 crank hp. Between 10 and 15 psi it should be very efficient.
My realistic goal should be betweem 10-12 psi.
If my cylinders bores are very good I could just hone them and put back the stock pistons with new rings (If the pistons still on specs for sure). Also, maybe I could use std size LCperformance pistons with new pins.
If I have to rebore I could use LC performance hyper pistons or Arias. I like the fact I could go to 9.0:1 CR with the Arias, but I don't think it worth the money for my application. Besides I don't think I need forged pistons to run 12 psi in any ways.
I also understand with what you said that connecting rods are not needed for my build.
Sounds like a solid plan. The Toyota parts are top notch. Sounds like you'll get everything out of the turbo and that you have planned a solid build. I would think you could get to 300 crank hp on a set of injectors and resourcing the fpr but I maybe wrong. Not sure how much difference from the 93 octane to 91. You seem to have learned alot and done alot of research. You'll be fine.
*Warning, Rant directed at no one in particular ahead.*
I wish people would stop talking in PSI when they should be talking in HP. PSI means nothing, it is jsut a number and does not tell you how much stress is being put on any given engine part (well maybe the intercooler piping but not like you see those blowing up right and left).
What kills engine parts is power and/or cylinder pressure (they are directly related in most cases).
You can run 17psi out of turbo A and make 275whp and then run 17psi out of turbo B and make 330whp and then 17psi out of turbo C and make 400whp. Guess which one will put the most stress on the engine?
Conversely, turbo C will put less stress on the engine if you turn it down to 8psi and make 275whp due to the reduced back pressure lowering EGT's and knock.
Speaking of knock, knock is what kills 95% of engines modded making power. Knock can double or even triple the cylinder pressure and obviously that doubles or triples the stress on the engine. Not to mention that it is pressure working against the engine rotation so even more stress is applied.
Boost is an almost meaningless number except when taking knock threshold on a giving gas octane level. Past that it is just a reference number that needs a bunch of other info to actually mean anything.
Do you feel better now? Your the king of stating the obvious as if nobody knew.
If you don't know what knock is and how to control it yes you will be doomed.
Dick has been researching all this stuff and he has proven that he gonna be involved in whatever route he takes.
Rants are cool if they make you feel better but they get old to the rest of us. You are definitely good at them. I just don't see the benefit. When people are having a general descussion about options and you feel the need to act out.
You are right I shouldn't have spoke in psi... I should did it in hps... I always take for granted that we are using about all the same sizing of turbos but because 2RZ and 3RZ turboed are all homebrew it's a jungle where you encounter every size possible. I understand well that T25 making 15 psi vs a GT35 at 15 will be two different world... air charge temperature will be different... also if you can't run timming you end with less power.
That's a good point. The 10-15 psi I,m talking about is with what I calculated on my chart with my turbo that should give like 250 @ 10 psi to 315 hp @ 15 psi at the crank.
I'm just trying to figure what are the needs for my engine bloc, pistons and rods... I know I will use Cometic gasket and ARP studs anyways.
I red Luis @ Paradise said the crank itself can hold up to 1000-1200 hps... Maybe they work it a little bit to hold that much but anyways I won't ever go close to that kind of power.
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